on Saturday 18, Dec. 2004
You know I would have absolute respect for Skinner's position and be in full agreement with it except for one little thing. As a matter of fact I would not want peple to be able to ask for the reason someone was kicked off and have it shared with the world and I think Skinner's point is absolutely right on this. Except for one eensy teensy little thing...
You know I would have absolute respect for Skinner's position and be in full agreement with it except for one little thing. As a matter of fact I would not want peple to be able to ask for the reason someone was kicked off and have it shared with the world and I think Skinner's point is absolutely right on this. Except for one eensy teensy little thing...
If you were enjoying an online forum, were a $$ donating memeber , and you were suddenly banned with no forewarning or explanation, would you be upset? Here are some actual answers I've gotten:
·0% Eh... I'm not into participating that much anyway. No skin off my nose.
·8% No, why should I be? They own it and are not accountable to anyone besides themselves.
·0%I wouldn't care if I got thrown off a board. Its not that big of a deal. There are plenty out there and I'd just find another one.
·0% I find this annoying but I'll get over it. Maybe I needed to check out other boards anyway.
·91% I think it is a poor business practice to to treat their most caring members so shabbily. If this practice is common they will end up alienating a lot of folks.
·0% Absolutely, these are for-profit enterprises and "the customer is always right."
·0% I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore! Where's my lawyers number?
From: geo
Date: Sat Dec 18 2004, 8:18 AM PST show
Subject: Re: Tombstoning
Hi (others)
I have hesitated telling anyone yet, because the administrators have yet to get back to me, but I have been tombstoned as well. Nobody has told me why, and I have never received a moderator warning. I really don't get it, and after seeing your question for the moderators about Jamboi I felt I should get in touch since I had your e-mail address still in my box. It's been over 24 hours since I have noticed my posting privileges gone, and I still have yet to receive even the first communication from DU staff. I am very upset. As many know I am smack-dab in the middle of a project with other DU members to give California's election results an audit, and with the very last of my homework being done this weekend (yay!!), I was very much looking forward to seeing that project advance at a full-time pace. (If anyone has wondered why I have been posting yet, three words: finals, senior thesis.)
Something is wonky here. I've spoken with Jamboi personally (we're both CA based) and when I was made aware of the drama (after 1 phone message from Bozos from Bush and four from Jamboi) I checked into DU. I received a PM from Jamboi and tried to reply and he had been zapped. I poked around the site enough to figure out what was up, and judged it to be an apparant misunderstanding between these guys, who have both been nothing but nice with me personally, on and off DU. I wrote Skinner a PM just to say that I had recent conversations with both now former members and shared my positive experience. I was very respectful, polite, appreciative and was just trying to be helpful. I also tried to calm down the drama on the thread by posting 2 comments, equally polite, respectful and appreciative. In between these two comments I sent an alert to the moderators to let them know the drama is unfolding in the thread and suggest it be reviewed for locking. Then I get zapped too the next morning.
I've made very limited posts the last few days, and am reasonably certain the loss of priviliges has something to do with this incident.
This is wrong. DU is funded by its members because it is an open and inviting community where ideas can be exchanged without such swift penalty.
I understand why Bozos for Bush was zapped, and there seems no repair to that relationship. Jamboi was apparently zapped (as far as I can tell)
because Skinner 1) Did not like the fact that Jamboi criticized the Democratic Party, and 2) had instances of two logins from his IP address.
The criticism of the party is one that several have shared (though personally I see Skinner's point about splitting forces), and should be safe discussion in the forum. Perhaps putting some well deserved pressure on party leadership to "get with it" wouldn't hurt. As far as having two different users login from the same IP, he has a friend who is on DU as well and has logged in from the same LAN and/or PC at times. It's my understanding that said friend has a very obviously different writing style and posting habits, posting very rarely as compared to the more prolific Jamboi. On the phone with him, I could hear his friend in the background occasionally making comments about how unfair she thought this whole situation was; she was zapped too.
Below I will post the letters I sent to Skinner (who I don't know but still have major respect for, despite my intense feeling I have been wronged) and the other admin. At this point, I too am concerned that important dissenting voices are being zapped without substantial consideration or other efforts to mitigate.
Ironically, I had just applied to be a moderator. I am very supportive of the site, its values, and the leadership, but I too am baffled over my banning and the serious lack of communication that followed it. I would have preferred to receive and would have followed any warning a moderator or administrator would have sent, but even to date, no such communication has arrived.
I feel strongly at this point that we should continue to support the site, even financially, but I agree with the right of members to question excessive tombstoning. What members pay for is a "big tent" environment where members like Jamboi can offer reasonable dissent on party actions. And I hate to sound at all self-centered, but my banning has left me even more baffled. Me???
DU is a wonderful community of people who don't take democracy as some spectator sport, only to be absorbed through the proverbial box courtesy MSM. It is, and hopefully will continue to be a bastion for idea exchange within this movement, but I fear it will not continue to be when people get cast out of the community without any warning, for very little apparent reason, and for simple misunderstandings. This is not what its members are paying for.
Please feel free to repost any of this communication you feel is appropriate. If you do I would like to ask that an administrator call me or write me so we can resolve this. I feel strongly that I have been wronged.
Warmly,
(geo)
George
p.s. I must note that I am no longer advocating any attempt at reconciliation between Skinner/DU and Bozos for Bush at this point in time,
largely because I believe it to be truly unattainable at this point.
p.p.s. Hi (Xxxxxx). I am cc'ing you on this since you asked if everything was o.k. :) I have some more records requests to get out, but things are moving along. The records request did work with Yolo county, and I'm sure others will follow suit shortly. (Sorry, but had to update.)
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First, the e-mails I sent after losing posting privileges:
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Hi Earlg, Elad and Skinner,
I am writing with regards to my loss of posting privileges, and must express my deep concern for what has just happened. The more the reality of this sets in, the more upset I am that this action has been taken. I am very eager to discuss this decision with an administrator as soon as possible, as I believe I am a productive member of the community you all so graciously host, and feel greatly wronged by losing my posting privileges in this manner. The short list of rules are as follows:
- This is a message board for Democrats and other progressives.
- Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger.
- Don't post entire articles. Instead, post short excerpts (not exceeding 4 paragraphs) with links.
- Respect the wishes of the moderators and administrators.
I feel that my behavior on this board has been nothing if not the epitome of these values. The message rules also state, "Follow the 'Short Version' of the rules listed above and you will never have any trouble on this message board." I do acknowledge the right to ban anyone at anytime for any reason, but I do suggest that these reasons are subject to the other claims made throughout the site with regards to the operation of the DU forums. The "reasons" for banning someone should be consistent with the sale-point that this is a "big tent" message board. After all, this is why people fund this site. Even I was eagerly awaiting my next college financial aid check to come in January so that I may afford to contribute financial support to such a worthy and inviting effort. I also, in case it had been overlooked, offered to volunteer my time to help moderate the boards in an effort to help support this "big tent" environment.
Just prior to this loss of privilege, I had spent several days only checking in because I have been under major weight of homework obligations; finals and a senior thesis. The only posts I made immediately prior to the loss of
privilege action was to:
a) inform Skinner via PM of my personal knowledge of both (former members Bozos for Bush and Jamboi) offering any information I could that would help clear up a potential misunderstanding. I had recent phone conversations with both of these guys, and feel strongly that had I received their messages earlier this misunderstanding may not have erupted. I felt that I should say something.
b) posting minor comments in a thread that was primarily asking about how to keep in touch with Wayne Madsen, and was subsequently an arena for personal attacks and speculation on the character of others. These comments were aimed at:
- Answer the only germane question posed in the thread: how to reach Wayne Madsen, and or his recent conduit to DU, Jamboi.
- Defusing the source of the personal conflict and misunderstanding.
- Placing the pleasant and humane aspects of said individuals into the conversation. This included praise and appreciation for moderators, their functions, and for the humans behind the screen names being speculated upon.
- Discourage openly the continued posting in this thread for reasons of speculating or assassinating the characters of others.
- Remind members that our moderators and administrators make consistently decisions that are rational, thoughtful and consistent with generosity to the human element in us all.
c) posted an alert to the moderators recommending the thread be locked for obvious reasons.
These actions are 100% consistent with the values advanced in the "short list" of rules, and if I may say so, are very representative of these ideals. My efforts served to reorient the discussion on the topical subject matter and less so on the human beings involved. My comments regarding others were very uplifting and supportive, respectful and considerate. They were brief, supportive, and the only ones present prior to Skinners that made any serious attempt to reorient conversation back to something more positive. From my perspective, I was helping.
The rules, and comments I have seen in related threads regarding Bev Harris' being banned (which I understand more and more each day) that people are not banned for one incident, but are banned on the basis of willful, repeated behavior. Here I will note that I have never once received a warning from a moderator or administrator, nor have I committed any "willful" violation of the rules. I am very consistent in my attempt to leave and receive thoughtful commentary on the issues most dear to the democratic party, and those who share interest in similar outcomes and efforts. I believe strongly that had I offended the consciousness of any of the moderating or administrative staff, that they should have at least made an effort to contact me to resolve the issue prior to any loss of privileges.
I have asked the one person who has already learned of my loss of privilege not to comment on it at all on the web at this point. I am wondering if perhaps the person or people who made this decision were just angry with the Jamboi and Bozos issue and accidentally took it out on me, or overlooked the fact my actions, if in fact in violation, were completely unintentional and could be resolved with the most minor of communicative efforts.
I have thoroughly benefited from my involvement in this community, and it is with mixed feeling I question this decision. I have great appreciation for what I have found in this site, and will continue to benefit from being able to read the posts of others, but will sorely miss the ability to engage other like-minded folk in active discussion and coordinated actions. I have been a part of DU for roughly a month now. It has become a significant part of my life, and even post election 2004, I would anticipate it still being as much so. This site serves to keep people actively engaged in the issues that effect them most, and for that, this for profit site is doing an incredible public service. Please restore my privileges so I do not have to participate from the sidelines. I do not believe I deserved such swift, harsh and removed action by your staff, and more importantly, I do not believe the action is consistent with the purposes for which Democratic Underground is funded by its members; DU gains member support under the guise that his is a "big tent" discussion environment, not one in which members are exiled from the community so quickly and heartlessly.
I feel I am a valuable contributor to the site. My background includes a few years editing and writing news for KFWB news in Los Angeles, during which time I occasionally filed reports with CNN, AP and other CBS/Infinity affiliated stations. My major focus of study is Public Administration, and I am currently in the process of applying to law school. I have received eight separate government commendations for work I have done with a local community college, where I have exposed (using our State's sunshine laws) non-compliant practices that total damages in the millions of dollars. I have spent time in Sacramento lobbying on behalf of higher education concerns. Needless to say, my background is one that is very consistent with a focus on qualified political discourse from a leftist perspective.
I look forward to your response.
Very truly yours,
(geo)
----- Original Message -----
From: (geo)
To: mail@democraticunderground.com
Cc: skinner@democraticunderground.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:41 AM
Subject: Posting Privileges
Hi all,
I just realized my posting privileges have been revoked. What happened? I have read the message board rules, and know that you guys only ban people for patterns of behavior that are disruptive. I feel my posts are very kind and thoughtful. I should also note that prior to finding myself unable to login, I have never been warned or told of any behavior that I displayed
that would lead to this.
My login is Geo. I even recently applied to be a moderator. I love the DU community, and do not wish to be cast out.
My posts have been very light over the last few days. I have checked back frequently for breaking news and analysis, but have tried to keep posting to a minimum so I can focus on finals/senior thesis. The only thing I have done differently in the last 24 hours is send one PM to Skinner regarding the Jamboi/Bozos drama, and post an alert about a thread I thought was getting out of hand (to which Skinner seemed to agree... he locked it down).
Obviously he is upset with Jamboi and Bozos, and I feel ban may be because I was caught in the crossfire. Just because I have spoken to them over the phone does not make me a bad apple among the DU barrel.
I am in the middle of a project with other DU members to audit California's election returns, and literally less than three days away from being able to make that my full time committment. My inbox has messages that need to be returned, and folks (including myself) have invested time in this. I would really like to continue the effort, and the DU forum has been a great help in bringing people together for such purposes.
If I have in fact done anything at all to violate a DU rule, I deeply apologize and can assure you that no rule violation would be repeated if I were at all cognicent of it happening. I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the work DU administrators and moderators have done to keep up this growing community, and would not want to convey any message to the contrary, be it expressed or implied.
Warmly,
(geo)
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Next, what was written to Skinner via PM just before I was tombstoned:
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Hi Skinner,
I came home today with four phone calls from Jamboi and a missed call from Bozos for Bush, both now former members. As possibly one of the few DU members that have spoken with both of these members via telephone, I just wanted to make available to the moderating team the background I have in case it helps settle any disputes or could help influence a decision to re-assimilate these folks back into the DU community.
I am still a relatively new member to DU, so please accept my apology if I am at all out of line for butting in. I like both these guys, absolutely love DU, and really have a deep appreciation for what it must be like to keep the peace in such an environment. I hope anything I say here is representative as such. :)
======================
Short version: Both nice guys. Spoke with both over the phone prior to all this; at length. All Californians. Very well intentioned folks. John may need coaching on being tactful. (JamBoi) may post alot, but is a hella nice. Miss them both. Hope personal statement will help clear up potential misunderstandings. :)
========================
Long version: I met (Bozos) through DU. (Bozos) is a nice guy, but has a short fuse when it come to folks playing games. I posted at BBV before finding DU (bless you all) and being still relatively new to even BBV, I was very patient and understanding with a poster named Auditors, who was not very good at working and playing well with others. As a matter of fact, his/her posts eventually appeared to be brazen and deliberate attempts to mess with folks. I came to DU more often to get away from it, and then noticed the trend here, with the same wording, illogical fact finding missions, and inconsiderate responses. I met (Bozos) when addressing the pattern, and in learning he is down the freeway from me, we have kept in touch somewhat.
There is a tactful way to handle disruptive situations. I'm not sure (Bozos) exercised this level of patience and tact. This may be why a nice and well intentioned guy like (Bozos) isn't able to use the service at this point in time. Over the phone, we laughed as he accused me of being too patient and nice with these folks. I have a feeling he gets it now, and may take more seriously the rules related to personal attacks and "calling people out."
As for (JamBoi) I have read and was very appreciative of his many posts. While some venture a little further into the land of tin-foil headware than I would have, I found many to be quite useful. (JamBoi) and I spoke at length regarding DU related issues, especially Mr. Madsen's articles, my personal concern for journalistic accuracy, and the somewhat related project of giving at least a surface audit to California's election results. I too had exchanged a couple of e-mails with Mr. Madsen, and had some reservations about starting a large audit project based on inaccurate or unfounded statements. We naturally came to the conclusion that an audit could never really hurt as long as we kept people from over-investing (and burning out). We also spoke about (JamBoi's) involvement with MoveOn.org, which is what brought him to be more active in these sorts of issues. We both recognized the near insomnia the election had caused in us.
Both these guys are dedicated souls based on my experience with them, on DU and off. (Bozos) may be in need of some friendly coaching on being tactful to even the most "obvious" disruptor, and perhaps (JamBoi) just posts too much. I will say this though: they are genuine, faults and all. Even if they ended up causing some headache, I know it is not at all because they are not respectful of the issues our community cares most deeply about; if anything they are too passionate. :)
I have seen amazing consistency in the reasoning and thoughtfulness behind DU moderator decisions and have only the utmost appreciation for the balance maintained on this site. Personally, I would love to see both of these very nice, well intentioned fellas make it back to this little community we have here. It would be nice to see their passion for discussion shaped and molded
in a manner consistent with DU rules. I hope my sharing of the personal contact I have had with these members makes it easier to see that they are
on our side, even when slightly misdirected. :) :)
If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading. :) At least I mentioned it was the long version!! lol
Warmly,
(geo)
