A fellowship of unjustly "tombstoned" DemocraticUnderground members. We use this space to talk about our feelings in reaction to the experience of first joining in the wonderful DU community and then expelled with no warning, no reason given and no response to our pleas for reinstatement. We feel this constitutes Anti-Democracy by DU Admin.
[snip]
All I can think about is you. You have invaded my mind. Occupied my consciousness. I cannot put you out of my head. You and your crimes. Soldiers dead and wounded, murdered civilians, tortured prisoners, lives shattered throughout the world, scatter the corpses make the pile higher! And let's not forget Andrew Veal, the guy who put a bullet in his head at Ground Zero in tragic salute to your victory march--onward we march, onward pissed off soldiers, marching on to war. You have littered the planet with lies--but the bigger crime--you have done it in our name and on our dime. And now you seek to cleanup: every scrap of truth shall be destroyed. How vastly you have misunderestimated these seekers of truth. You thought you weren't leaving a trace. But in your first term, we learned to survive on the scraps, miniscule particles of justice and peace--we have become vigilant vultures, divebombing to snatch any last morsel of beauty and truth.
Then, in a flash of brilliance, one fleeting moment in time, it appeared. There was one who could not sleep through that nightmarish November night--there's something amiss here she said, and sounded the alarm! Millions have since answered the call. We have connected the dots. Performing to our utmost in a public display of persistence, pertinacity and prayer --we have said it: the banality of evil shall not prevail. Indeed we have dared to issue the Eleventh command: Thou shalt not prey upon the planet!
In those sparse moments of sanity when I come up for breath, I ask myself just how much of the American taxpayer's money you and your programmers have squandered to orchestrate this, your most catastrophically successful fiasco to date. Were anyone to invest as much time, energy and ingenuity as it has taken to make the case against you into comparing the millions points of tragic parallel between you and Adolf Hitler, right down to that smug, self-confident smirk, what they would find is that you surpass him by a margin of more than fifty five million to one because Hitler set out to slaughter certain sectors of the population--you want to obliterate everyone and everything. Your aim is total annihilation. Totalitarianism to the tenth degree.
I cannot sleep, nor eat, nor speak to the ones that I love: all I can do is write. I have a bag of carrots and some bread, I nibble and chew, longing all the while just to dine, sipping fine wine beside a window to the world. Extra! Extra! Read all about it. I am writing for my life. For the life of the planet and the dignity of humanity. Your violations will be revealed and we will bring you to the most poetic justice the world has ever seen. Our good name shall be redeemed because we, too, write with GOD on our side. But ours is not the god of vengeance, it is the god of justice, of freedom, of peace. We will neither retreat, nor surrender. There will be no white flag. Not this time.
It is a remarkable feat: you have succeeded in dividing this country, not merely along the lines of the Mason Dixon line, but into parallel universes. Those who know the truth, and those who believe the lies. Those who know are glued to their screens: they have gone underground, creeping and crawling, scouring these nefarious bowels to smoke out this craven scourge. Hungry for truth, starving for justice, we have found it. It is here. Indeed, in our search we have discovered it and brought it to light. The others, portent and petrified of the truth, fearing what the million points of light are sure to reveal, go about their business. They have no emails to send, no letters to write. They go to their jobs, teaching the classes, cleaning the carpets, caring for the kids and thank god that they do because otherwise the world would come to an immediate halt--would be sucked into the incendiary backdraft of all you have done.
The lines of communication have broken down: we live worlds, indeed, universes apart.
(snip)
We know we are winning. Indeed, we have long since won. But no one up there can see it because they've buried their heads in "conspiracy theorist" spin.
[snip]
My prayers are with you, and, as always, with this country and her people. Today I stand proud despite what you've done. Because we've made the case, and yes, we have won.
Sincerest regards,
Dr. Lilian Friedberg
Reporting from the Democratic Mandate of the United States of America
JamBoi-In-Exile: Day 3
One of the time honored values of democratic liberalism is fair mindedness, objectivity, courage... break out your JS Mills to see what real, classical Liberalism really consists of. Liberalism and democracy has and should mean openness, due process, equanimity, humanitarianism, and above all generosity and liberty. Let see... Liberal...Liberty...hmm... there seems to be a connection between these two words.(!)
I had a professor in college who loved to say something to the effect "If you meet a true liberal, you should take your hat off for them" to honor them because they are so rare, courageous and altruistic. He himself was a conservative who didn't agree with liberalism, but still valued civil discourse. He believed in honest debate and the ability to agree to disagree. I wonder how his attitude would be met at DU.
It is unseemly to post a laundry list of accusations against someone who is not able to defend himself."
If it were just me suffering this kind of mistreatment that would be bad enough. I'd still feel the mourning from abrupt forceful separation and Skinner's loud silent cold shoulder. But when I start to recieve other people's notes and e-mails telling me that the experience is frighteningly common, I start to feel a whole different level of concern. This does not look anything like liberalism or democracy to me. It looks like quite the opposite: autocracy. How can we achieve macro democracy if we do not strive to achieve micro democracy in our lives and our institutions. Surely we are what we practice are we not? How will practicing autocratic practices bring us closer to instituting democracy and liberalism? It simply can't.
I am a very faulty democrat/liberal myself. As a matter of fact I do not even presume to call myself a Liberal because I feel I'm unworthy of claiming the level of altruistic virtue that would require of me. To me the ACLU is the gold standard of what it means to be liberal. They'll fight for anyone's rights whether or not they agree with them. I don't know if I could be that fair-minded. I am a self-identified "Radical Moderate." I try to apply a progressive attitude without throwing out tradition and continuity arbitrarily. So probably I am in no position to throw stones at Skinner having made numerous mistakes in being overly autocratic myself at various points. Nevertheless it seems to me that I am putting forth a very reasonable reinstatement request to Skinner and DU with full acknowledgement of my faults, sincere promise to alter any behavior Skinner objects to and to strive to treat him and all other DU members with respect. I am trying to practice liberality, and extend a generous application of forgiveness towards him and the Administration at DU.
At the same time there is this disturbing fact that others are experiencing very similar autocratic behavior from the DU administration. Not_Without_A_Fight was unceremoniously dumped simultaneously as me. She wrote an angry but well-reasoned comment to one of my previous diaries. Since that has not gotten very much exposure I'll represent it here. I was loathe to express these kinds of criticisms when I didn't have experience beyond mine to point to. But when numbers of people report similar problems I start to sit up and take notice.
Her comment follows below. Though a bit on the harsh side I think she has a good point. These accumulating reports would seem to question the very underpinnings of DemocraticUnderground.com when alternative points of view are suppressed and driven truly underground. Is this democracy/liberalism or is it autocracy? If we can't practice democracy among ourselves how will we ever be able to lead our nation in a democratic way?
JamBoi
I too was recently ejected from DU -- without benefit of explanation. I find this DU practice ('tombstoning') exceptionally arbitrary with a tendency toward the paranoid.
One would assume that DU would support investigation of voter fraud. However, if the comment above (from deepthroat) accurately characterizes the reason for JamBoi's ejection -- it would seem that only certain avenues of investigation are allowed in their forum. I can assure you, my dear readers, that in the normal course of an investigator's work, many blind alleys are traveled in order to piece together the truth.
While on DU, I never once posted on the issue of Madsen. Far from being a disrupter, my last post titled 'Are we pivoting away from 'our cause' in trying to figure out Bev Harris?' wherein I simply wanted to encourage people to refocus on the issue at hand -- the voter fraud issue and the ongoing fight in Ohio -- rather than spending so many cycles trashing or guessing at Bev's motives was to my mind an uniting effort. Frankly, it is inconceivable to me that this would be unacceptable to the DU PTB (Powers That Be).
If there is a certain flavor of Democrat or certain caliber of thought that must be maintained by DU participants -- then that should be spelled out in the rules. I read the rules on 'disruptors', and while I do not see how any of my posts qualified, the description of a disruptor is far too vague to offer adequate guidance for one to self-censor well enough to avoid DU rejection.
This simply means that DU maintains the right to be arbitrary, unfair and censor-at-will. Funny, I would have predicted that the last stand, on freedom of speech rights, would be made by the liberals.
The fact that DU seems to want to play the 'Man Behind The Curtain' Game -- guiding discussions in certain directions and shutting down other discussions -- is well scary. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might draw some conclusions from this behavior. However, the mere the fact that DU does this as a practice should be quite clear to everyone.
For me, the DU brand of censorship and manipulation is unacceptable.
I have been a registered Democrat for more than 30 years. However, my short but educational experience with Democratic Underground, has made me very seriously consider re-registering as a Green.
Not_Without_A_Fight
I've run a number of on-line communities myself and had to take difficult stances some of which turned out to be mistakes some even colosal errors. So I have tons o' sympathy for Skinner and his position.
Except for one thing: he has never explained to me what I did that was "disruptive" to get me booted, or to let me correct my behavior. If my prolific posting is a problem I'm more than happy to limit myself, even severely. I'm even willing to take the Madsen stuff elsewhere. I'm willing to limit my criticisms of the DNC (contrary to the implication in one of Skinner's posts I never have, nor do I now advocate leaving the Democratic party -- I just asked for people to tell the DNC to get involved in the recount/VoteScam04 investigations -- big difference between saying "give them feedback" and saying "leave the party"). But how can I fix something when Skinner won't even tell me what is wrong? My take on this is that in the tense atmosphere we're in right now there's so much distrust floating around that no one knows who to trust and that Skinner jumped to false conclusions about me and anyone else who expressed support for me.
I'm not as fiery as Not_Without_A_Fight who left a comment on one of my other threads complaining about her getting tombstoned with no warning or explanation, and I have more sympathy for Skinner's position than she does, but I do have to agree that to be fair and to set a good community standard it only makes sense to provide people with warnings and explanations of what rules they have violated and the change in behavior that the Admins are looking for.
I personally know of now four individuals who've been summarily tombstoned with no explanation all appearently because they spoke up for me. Not_Without_A_Fight, pipes and geo. This is really a crazy thing and I hope that we can dialog with Skinner and straighten this out. Here's hoping.
The following is a tale of woe from geo who has had a similar tombstoning experience. Of all people, geo. Really I have to say that's crazy. Geo has always been ultra polite and well mannered on DU and can in no way be called "disruptive". The only thing he ever did "wrong" was to post some positive, reconciling things about me after I got tombstoned. Here's his sad story below.
JamBoi
Hi (others)
I have hesitated telling anyone yet, because the administrators have yet to get back to me, but I have been tombstoned as well. Nobody has told me why, and I have never received a moderator warning. I really don't get it, and after seeing your question for the moderators about Jamboi I felt I should get in touch since I had your e-mail address still in my box. It's been over 24 hours since I have noticed my posting privileges gone, and I still have yet to receive even the first communication from DU staff. I am very upset. As many know I am smack-dab in the middle of a project with other DU members to give California's election results an audit, and with the very last of my homework being done this weekend (yay!!), I was very much looking forward to seeing that project advance at a full-time pace. (If anyone has wondered why I have been posting yet, three words: finals, senior thesis.)
Something is wonky here. I've spoken with Jamboi personally (we're both CA based) and when I was made aware of the drama (after 1 phone message from Bozos from Bush and four from Jamboi) I checked into DU. I received a PM from Jamboi and tried to reply and he had been zapped. I poked around the site enough to figure out what was up, and judged it to be an apparant misunderstanding between these guys, who have both been nothing but nice with me personally, on and off DU. I wrote Skinner a PM just to say that I had recent conversations with both now former members and shared my positive experience. I was very respectful, polite, appreciative and was just trying to be helpful. I also tried to calm down the drama on the thread by posting 2 comments, equally polite, respectful and appreciative. In between these two comments I sent an alert to the moderators to let them know the drama is unfolding in the thread and suggest it be reviewed for locking. Then I get zapped too the next morning.
I've made very limited posts the last few days, and am reasonably certain the loss of priviliges has something to do with this incident.
This is wrong. DU is funded by its members because it is an open and inviting community where ideas can be exchanged without such swift penalty.
I understand why Bozos for Bush was zapped, and there seems no repair to that relationship. Jamboi was apparently zapped (as far as I can tell)
because Skinner 1) Did not like the fact that Jamboi criticized the Democratic Party, and 2) had instances of two logins from his IP address.
The criticism of the party is one that several have shared (though personally I see Skinner's point about splitting forces), and should be safe discussion in the forum. Perhaps putting some well deserved pressure on party leadership to "get with it" wouldn't hurt. As far as having two different users login from the same IP, he has a friend who is on DU as well and has logged in from the same LAN and/or PC at times. It's my understanding that said friend has a very obviously different writing style and posting habits, posting very rarely as compared to the more prolific Jamboi. On the phone with him, I could hear his friend in the background occasionally making comments about how unfair she thought this whole situation was; she was zapped too.
Below I will post the letters I sent to Skinner (who I don't know but still have major respect for, despite my intense feeling I have been wronged) and the other admin. At this point, I too am concerned that important dissenting voices are being zapped without substantial consideration or other efforts to mitigate.
Ironically, I had just applied to be a moderator. I am very supportive of the site, its values, and the leadership, but I too am baffled over my banning and the serious lack of communication that followed it. I would have preferred to receive and would have followed any warning a moderator or administrator would have sent, but even to date, no such communication has arrived.
I feel strongly at this point that we should continue to support the site, even financially, but I agree with the right of members to question excessive tombstoning. What members pay for is a "big tent" environment where members like Jamboi can offer reasonable dissent on party actions. And I hate to sound at all self-centered, but my banning has left me even more baffled. Me???
DU is a wonderful community of people who don't take democracy as some spectator sport, only to be absorbed through the proverbial box courtesy MSM. It is, and hopefully will continue to be a bastion for idea exchange within this movement, but I fear it will not continue to be when people get cast out of the community without any warning, for very little apparent reason, and for simple misunderstandings. This is not what its members are paying for.
Please feel free to repost any of this communication you feel is appropriate. If you do I would like to ask that an administrator call me or write me so we can resolve this. I feel strongly that I have been wronged.
Warmly,
(geo)
George
p.s. I must note that I am no longer advocating any attempt at reconciliation between Skinner/DU and Bozos for Bush at this point in time,
largely because I believe it to be truly unattainable at this point.
p.p.s. Hi (Xxxxxx). I am cc'ing you on this since you asked if everything was o.k. :) I have some more records requests to get out, but things are moving along. The records request did work with Yolo county, and I'm sure others will follow suit shortly. (Sorry, but had to update.)
----------------------------------------------------------
First, the e-mails I sent after losing posting privileges:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Earlg, Elad and Skinner,
I am writing with regards to my loss of posting privileges, and must express my deep concern for what has just happened. The more the reality of this sets in, the more upset I am that this action has been taken. I am very eager to discuss this decision with an administrator as soon as possible, as I believe I am a productive member of the community you all so graciously host, and feel greatly wronged by losing my posting privileges in this manner. The short list of rules are as follows:
Just prior to this loss of privilege, I had spent several days only checking in because I have been under major weight of homework obligations; finals and a senior thesis. The only posts I made immediately prior to the loss of
privilege action was to:
a) inform Skinner via PM of my personal knowledge of both (former members Bozos for Bush and Jamboi) offering any information I could that would help clear up a potential misunderstanding. I had recent phone conversations with both of these guys, and feel strongly that had I received their messages earlier this misunderstanding may not have erupted. I felt that I should say something.
b) posting minor comments in a thread that was primarily asking about how to keep in touch with Wayne Madsen, and was subsequently an arena for personal attacks and speculation on the character of others. These comments were aimed at:
These actions are 100% consistent with the values advanced in the "short list" of rules, and if I may say so, are very representative of these ideals. My efforts served to reorient the discussion on the topical subject matter and less so on the human beings involved. My comments regarding others were very uplifting and supportive, respectful and considerate. They were brief, supportive, and the only ones present prior to Skinners that made any serious attempt to reorient conversation back to something more positive. From my perspective, I was helping.
The rules, and comments I have seen in related threads regarding Bev Harris' being banned (which I understand more and more each day) that people are not banned for one incident, but are banned on the basis of willful, repeated behavior. Here I will note that I have never once received a warning from a moderator or administrator, nor have I committed any "willful" violation of the rules. I am very consistent in my attempt to leave and receive thoughtful commentary on the issues most dear to the democratic party, and those who share interest in similar outcomes and efforts. I believe strongly that had I offended the consciousness of any of the moderating or administrative staff, that they should have at least made an effort to contact me to resolve the issue prior to any loss of privileges.
I have asked the one person who has already learned of my loss of privilege not to comment on it at all on the web at this point. I am wondering if perhaps the person or people who made this decision were just angry with the Jamboi and Bozos issue and accidentally took it out on me, or overlooked the fact my actions, if in fact in violation, were completely unintentional and could be resolved with the most minor of communicative efforts.
I have thoroughly benefited from my involvement in this community, and it is with mixed feeling I question this decision. I have great appreciation for what I have found in this site, and will continue to benefit from being able to read the posts of others, but will sorely miss the ability to engage other like-minded folk in active discussion and coordinated actions. I have been a part of DU for roughly a month now. It has become a significant part of my life, and even post election 2004, I would anticipate it still being as much so. This site serves to keep people actively engaged in the issues that effect them most, and for that, this for profit site is doing an incredible public service. Please restore my privileges so I do not have to participate from the sidelines. I do not believe I deserved such swift, harsh and removed action by your staff, and more importantly, I do not believe the action is consistent with the purposes for which Democratic Underground is funded by its members; DU gains member support under the guise that his is a "big tent" discussion environment, not one in which members are exiled from the community so quickly and heartlessly.
I feel I am a valuable contributor to the site. My background includes a few years editing and writing news for KFWB news in Los Angeles, during which time I occasionally filed reports with CNN, AP and other CBS/Infinity affiliated stations. My major focus of study is Public Administration, and I am currently in the process of applying to law school. I have received eight separate government commendations for work I have done with a local community college, where I have exposed (using our State's sunshine laws) non-compliant practices that total damages in the millions of dollars. I have spent time in Sacramento lobbying on behalf of higher education concerns. Needless to say, my background is one that is very consistent with a focus on qualified political discourse from a leftist perspective.
I look forward to your response.
Very truly yours,
(geo)
----- Original Message -----
From: (geo)
To: mail@democraticunderground.com
Cc: skinner@democraticunderground.com
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:41 AM
Subject: Posting Privileges
Hi all,
I just realized my posting privileges have been revoked. What happened? I have read the message board rules, and know that you guys only ban people for patterns of behavior that are disruptive. I feel my posts are very kind and thoughtful. I should also note that prior to finding myself unable to login, I have never been warned or told of any behavior that I displayed
that would lead to this.
My login is Geo. I even recently applied to be a moderator. I love the DU community, and do not wish to be cast out.
My posts have been very light over the last few days. I have checked back frequently for breaking news and analysis, but have tried to keep posting to a minimum so I can focus on finals/senior thesis. The only thing I have done differently in the last 24 hours is send one PM to Skinner regarding the Jamboi/Bozos drama, and post an alert about a thread I thought was getting out of hand (to which Skinner seemed to agree... he locked it down).
Obviously he is upset with Jamboi and Bozos, and I feel ban may be because I was caught in the crossfire. Just because I have spoken to them over the phone does not make me a bad apple among the DU barrel.
I am in the middle of a project with other DU members to audit California's election returns, and literally less than three days away from being able to make that my full time committment. My inbox has messages that need to be returned, and folks (including myself) have invested time in this. I would really like to continue the effort, and the DU forum has been a great help in bringing people together for such purposes.
If I have in fact done anything at all to violate a DU rule, I deeply apologize and can assure you that no rule violation would be repeated if I were at all cognicent of it happening. I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the work DU administrators and moderators have done to keep up this growing community, and would not want to convey any message to the contrary, be it expressed or implied.
Warmly,
(geo)
----------------------------------------------------------
Next, what was written to Skinner via PM just before I was tombstoned:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Skinner,
I came home today with four phone calls from Jamboi and a missed call from Bozos for Bush, both now former members. As possibly one of the few DU members that have spoken with both of these members via telephone, I just wanted to make available to the moderating team the background I have in case it helps settle any disputes or could help influence a decision to re-assimilate these folks back into the DU community.
I am still a relatively new member to DU, so please accept my apology if I am at all out of line for butting in. I like both these guys, absolutely love DU, and really have a deep appreciation for what it must be like to keep the peace in such an environment. I hope anything I say here is representative as such. :)
======================
Short version: Both nice guys. Spoke with both over the phone prior to all this; at length. All Californians. Very well intentioned folks. John may need coaching on being tactful. (JamBoi) may post alot, but is a hella nice. Miss them both. Hope personal statement will help clear up potential misunderstandings. :)
========================
Long version: I met (Bozos) through DU. (Bozos) is a nice guy, but has a short fuse when it come to folks playing games. I posted at BBV before finding DU (bless you all) and being still relatively new to even BBV, I was very patient and understanding with a poster named Auditors, who was not very good at working and playing well with others. As a matter of fact, his/her posts eventually appeared to be brazen and deliberate attempts to mess with folks. I came to DU more often to get away from it, and then noticed the trend here, with the same wording, illogical fact finding missions, and inconsiderate responses. I met (Bozos) when addressing the pattern, and in learning he is down the freeway from me, we have kept in touch somewhat.
There is a tactful way to handle disruptive situations. I'm not sure (Bozos) exercised this level of patience and tact. This may be why a nice and well intentioned guy like (Bozos) isn't able to use the service at this point in time. Over the phone, we laughed as he accused me of being too patient and nice with these folks. I have a feeling he gets it now, and may take more seriously the rules related to personal attacks and "calling people out."
As for (JamBoi) I have read and was very appreciative of his many posts. While some venture a little further into the land of tin-foil headware than I would have, I found many to be quite useful. (JamBoi) and I spoke at length regarding DU related issues, especially Mr. Madsen's articles, my personal concern for journalistic accuracy, and the somewhat related project of giving at least a surface audit to California's election results. I too had exchanged a couple of e-mails with Mr. Madsen, and had some reservations about starting a large audit project based on inaccurate or unfounded statements. We naturally came to the conclusion that an audit could never really hurt as long as we kept people from over-investing (and burning out). We also spoke about (JamBoi's) involvement with MoveOn.org, which is what brought him to be more active in these sorts of issues. We both recognized the near insomnia the election had caused in us.
Both these guys are dedicated souls based on my experience with them, on DU and off. (Bozos) may be in need of some friendly coaching on being tactful to even the most "obvious" disruptor, and perhaps (JamBoi) just posts too much. I will say this though: they are genuine, faults and all. Even if they ended up causing some headache, I know it is not at all because they are not respectful of the issues our community cares most deeply about; if anything they are too passionate. :)
I have seen amazing consistency in the reasoning and thoughtfulness behind DU moderator decisions and have only the utmost appreciation for the balance maintained on this site. Personally, I would love to see both of these very nice, well intentioned fellas make it back to this little community we have here. It would be nice to see their passion for discussion shaped and molded
in a manner consistent with DU rules. I hope my sharing of the personal contact I have had with these members makes it easier to see that they are
on our side, even when slightly misdirected. :) :)
If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading. :) At least I mentioned it was the long version!! lol
Warmly,
(geo)
